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The last days of the past year brought sad news. Edgar Savisaar passed away.
I would like to dedicate a small commemorative thread to one of the main figures of the Singing Revolution and the re-independence of Estonia and the entire Baltic region.
Edgar Savisaar was not only an Estonian politician, but also a politician of the entire Baltic region, as he is the author of the idea of the Baltic Way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Way
I was a teenager at the time and I needless to say supported both the singing revolution and the whole movement at that time. Wholeheartedly like teenagers often do.
The first prime minister of re-independent Estonia, founder of the Popular Front, founder of the left centrist Center Party and long-time mayor of Tallinn Edgar Savisaar passed away on Thursday at the age of 72.
Actual Estonians from families that have been there hundreds of years mostly thought he was a Russian agent... He did a lot of things that benefited Russian industry and influence in Estonia over domestic ownership and contracts etc... Never seen any policy from him that discouraged western conformity or encouraged Estonian independence....
By the way I don't get my information about Estonia from the internet...
The only thing he was kind of right about was western conformity.. He mostly screwed over Estonians on behalf of Russia. Even today Russian corruption in Estonia is bad and a lot of the government looks the other way or just does the same thing for America... Rich people from the US wrecked the already bad economy for the working class in the recent years; retired Estonians can't afford most goods and services...
Actual Estonians from families that have been there hundreds of years mostly thought he was a Russian agent... He did a lot of things that benefited Russian industry and influence in Estonia over domestic ownership and contracts etc... Never seen any policy from him that discouraged western conformity or encouraged Estonian independence....
By the way I don't get my information about Estonia from the internet...
The only thing he was kind of right about was western conformity.. He mostly screwed over Estonians on behalf of Russia. Even today Russian corruption in Estonia is bad and a lot of the government looks the other way or just does the same thing for America... Rich people from the US wrecked the already bad economy for the working class in the recent years; retired Estonians can't afford most goods and services...
Who are these your 'actual Estonians'?
Indeed, Savisaar was a controversial person and the right-wing liberals and the Estonian media, which represents almost 100 percentedly the interests right-wing liberals, held a real vendetta against him.
And they loved to publish information about Savisaar just like you are publishing here now.
Yes, the local Russians supported Edgar and his center-left Center Party, because Russians tend to have more left-wing views. But that's all, I think the talk about being some sort of 'Russian agent' is a biased opinion of right-liberal circles. In 1988-90 then Edgar was the leader of the Popular Front, the local Russians considered him their greatest enemy... It's good to know the history. You don't know it, but I do.
But the fact that you express such views today, on the day of his funeral, does you no credit. Yeah here in Estonia, we have a custom not to speak ill of a dead person. True, right-wing liberal circles and the media that support them sometimes still do so. I wonder if they are not afraid of bad karma.
You try to find more objective information. Yes, I admit, it is difficult, because the propaganda machine of the our right-liberals is terrible and they have also flooded the flow of information that goes from Estonia abroad.
By the way, if Edgar Savisaar had managed to stay in power in Estonia longer, the development of the entire Estonian state would have been more left-wing, i.e. taking into account the interests of the poorer and simpler people. Currently, the development of Estonia is unfortunately too much in favor of the wealthy liberal circles.
But still, for many years there was a situation where the right-wing liberal reform party controlled the central government (the social democrats were also in a coalition with them - true, their social democracy was just nominal and they did not do much/any good for simple people) and the mentioned liberal circles actually controlled the media as well. However, Savisaar and his Center party controlled the municipality of the city of Tallinn (almost 1/3 of the country), and so the city of Tallinn had a completely different political orientation.
Therefore, if E.Savisaar had had more influence in the whole country, the development of our society would have been more similar to actual European values. At present, unfortunately, we like some other former Eastern Bloc countries are too similar to the economic liberalism characteristic to your anglophone countries.
I have to say despite the rather cynical remarks by 24gf424g, I have to say that my little thread has received more attention than I expected. But I've noticed that ****posters like that disrespected 24gf424g usually make one post and then disappear.
I was going to limit myself to just one post at first, but fine, I'll make it a bit longer now.
There were many who despised Savisaar as a politician.This is no wonder, considering how much hatred the Estonian media has sown against Savisaar over the years.
His mother was either Russian or Seto, who came from a border area with a mixed population. His father was a SE Estonian farmer, so Savisaar was a person from my area. The parents of Savisaar did not want to join the kolkhoz in the 1940s, they refused to do so and because of this, the Soviet authorities repressed them and imprisoned them. And at that moment, his mother was expecting a child. Thus, the parents of Savisaar were victims of the Soviet rule. The fact that Savisaar was born in prison because of his mother's incarceration has been constantly emphasized by people who hate Savisaar. However, they have completely "forgotten" the fact that the parents of Savisaar were victims of the Soviet authorities.
Interesting, I've noticed that otherwise people always like to emphasize the fact that someone was repressed by the Soviets. Especially those who present themselves as 'actual Estonians' do this. But for some reason, however, I have never noticed that this situation is stressed in the case of Savisaar. They also like to emphatically show that they were very anti-Soviet in those days, although in fact Estonians have always been rather big conformists, who doesn't know that. But they do not mention that the parents of Savisaar were against the Soviets and suffered because of this fact. This simply confirms once again how "objective" the Estonian media and those reform party etc circles are. I can't even say that I was a supporter of Savisaar as a politician in his last decades, but still, this lack of objectivity is downright...glaring.
The funeral ceremony on this wintry day in the national opera building.
Savisaar was buried in a village cemetery in SE Estonia, next to his parents. Being around our close ones and away from bad people is the best we can hope for.
What would working class Estonians who have been in Estonia millennia know about Estonia that some, probably American or British, trying to push a narrative wouldn't?
Remember how I said I don't get my Estonia information the internet? That's because not only did I live and work there for a long time, but most of my family has been there hundreds of years, and are still there... Kids all the way up to elders... Türi, Kehtna, Tallinn, Kilksama.... Another cool fact: I own a farm there that has been in the family about two-hundred years...
Fact: REAL working class Estonians thought he was an agent for Russia because he consistently helped Russian entities win over Estonian and people noticed... REAL Estonians didn't associate him with the independence revolution... They thought he was owned by KGB then SVR...
More about the role of Savisaar and the attitude towards him, in response to the previous post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 24gf424g
What would working class Estonians who have been in Estonia millennia know about Estonia that some, probably American or British, trying to push a narrative wouldn't?
Remember how I said I don't get my Estonia information the internet? That's because not only did I live and work there for a long time, but most of my family has been there hundreds of years, and are still there... Kids all the way up to elders... Türi, Kehtna, Tallinn, Kilksama.... Another cool fact: I own a farm there that has been in the family about two-hundred years...
You are bragging about your farm here. How about humanity I wonder. The person just died. Northern and Western parts of the country, I was just wondering about these regional differences..
Quote:
Remember how I said I don't get my Estonia information the internet? That's because not only did I live and work there for a long time, but most of my family has been there hundreds of years,
Haha, then you are even more affected by the hatred that certain political circles and the Estonian media have developed for Savisaar for years.
Quote:
working class Estonians
In fact, the opposite is true. If Savisaar and his center-left Center Party were more in power in Estonia, both the working class and the pensioners you claim to be concerned about would be in a better situation. The right-wing Reform party wanted the wealthy groups of the population to get richer, to get richer at the expense of the poorer groups of the population. Unfortunately, that's how it happened.
Yes, the Reform party reduced the income tax on the wealthy, but in order for the state to get income, they increased the VAT on goods, including food, gasoline, heating, electricity, etc. Thus, the tax burden was placed on the shoulders of poor persons. However - if it hadn't been for Savisaar and his Center party, if it hadn't been for the pressure of Savisaar and the center party on the right-wing parties who have been in power for a long time, the situation of both the working class and pensioners would be even worse.
I was not a supporter of Savisaar and thought that he should have left politics. Mostly because all control in society is in the hands of the reform party anyway. The negative image of Savisaar (and when has there been anything good to read about Savisaar from our media, lol) made it difficult to include the center party in coalitions and thus further increased the power and control of the Reform party.
The reason why I appreciated Savisaar and made this thread was his activities in the past, during the restoration of independence. I also clearly stated these reasons.
Quote:
Fact: REAL working class Estonians thought he was an agent for Russia because he consistently helped Russian entities win over Estonian and people noticed... REAL Estonians didn't associate him with the independence revolution... They thought he was owned by KGB then SVR...
Do you also have facts about this? You don't have the facts, so you just slander like that?
By the way, why are you performing on behalf of other people. I haven't noticed other forum members doing this. Also, the wording of your short post tries to make its readers believe that I am not a real estonian and that my post is therefore worthless. It is wrong. And that's pretty mean.
However, it is nice that you made your post, now they can see what some circles in Estonia are like.
I do hope this following question of mine is relevant enough for your thread OP , and I sincerely apologize if it isn't , but since the subject seems to have already been brought up I'd like to ask the following :
Which is that am I right to assume that the issue of economics plays a big role in the left-right divide in Estonia ?
I'm asking because in the " Eastern European " countries I'm familiar with , left and right wing parties don't really tend to differ all that much from each other in essence when it comes to economic issues but it seems that isn't the case in Estonia , which is why these anecdotes about economic issues in relation to Estonian politics have piqued my interest .
i'm asking because in the " eastern european " countries i'm familiar with , left and right wing parties don't really tend to differ all that much from each other in essence
Well I may as well qualify this statement of mine with the following explanation .
Virtually all of the political parties in " Eastern Europe " that I know more than a tad about , tend to take an approach to economic policy , which goes something like this :
1. Put various types of left wing economic proposals , ranging from fuel price caps to universal basic income , in their official party programs and/or standard rhetoric .
2. If they happen to be a party that is or has been in power , put some of these proposals into practice even if in a watered down form .
3. Slavishly serve the interests of Western based multinational corporations , even if the party in question happens to base a lot of its rhetoric on being ostensibly opposed to economic globalism .
So my question really is , do the actions of political parties in Estonia fit this general pattern ?
Or is there a genuine difference relating to economics when it comes to Estonian political parties ?
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